Curse

Sab · Oct 05, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk, Sab. Moving ZB does not weaken ZB itself. It would weaken the Prot line mildly.

I've played enough 4v4 to know what is a viable backline character and what is not. Currently ZB is the best, given one slot for a defensive character. Other Monk builds have a clear-cut counter so they are not particularly good choices for TA (MR/Boon, SoR). As for non-Monk builds, they require two characters to really replace the one Monk (while providing offense, of course), such as Expel Rit/WoR Rit or Smiter's Boon/WoR Rit, but that narrows down your offensive options to two characters. So, I'd say that ZB is good for the game right now, being the most flexible and efficient build for 4v4. I just can't figure out why you'd want that changed for no real reason.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 05, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

destroy the 4v4 arena metagame because you don't like where they put a spell? o ok

Spazzer · Oct 06, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Thom I would never try to destroy your arena metagame. :* I'd hate to see you go from 12 10 8 to 11 10 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

You thought it was a good idea a year ago and people disagreed.

Who? Nobody dissagreed. We knew how bad putting an unconditional heal in Prot would be.

Quote:

After a year of play, most appear to like ZB just fine where it is...and what it does because of where it is.

Of course they do, because they all like to use it.

Auron of Neon · Oct 06, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

This year, I'm here to tell you "I told you so".

Except you were wrong.

Quote:

To me, Monks are to TA in the same way that Mesmers are to PvE.

Nearly useless? Wrong.

Quote:

Saying that ZB is the only effective 4v4 elite is wrong, as I can make an effective boonprot monk that will serve its function in 4v4.

So wait... you're whining because ZB is too powerful a heal for prot builds, and yet you're using divine boon to supplement the heals in an otherwise-weak prot build? That's more than a little hypocritical. You use dboon, they use ZB. How does that make your build any better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

spirit bond makes red bars go up. should it be in healing as well?

Yes. Why is it assumed that I shouldn't agree with this?

Wow... just wow.

Quote:

Spirit Bond only heals. Its effect mirrors Healing Hands.

Except its good. And prot.

Quote:

Would you say that Zealous Benediction is pre-prot?

Lol?

Quote:

A team build can still be balanced if it doesn't include a Monk

Sure, if you have a rit healer instead (which use prot in the form of weapons).

Basically... you've got very little grasp of game mechanics as they apply to monks. Heal had zero utility for a long time, and it still sort of does (cure hex is nice, but isn't everything). Prot has lots of utility. Yes, prot is better than healing (proactive damage mitigation saves tons of energy compared to mindless reactive red-bars-go-up).

In balanced builds in 8v8 arenas, people run a prot and a heal monk (or hybrids; lod with rof isn't uncommon, and every prot monk for a long time has had gift); but in a small arena, where you don't have the room for a prot and a heal, you'd be most effective running a prot (with heals). Even you, Spazzer, admit to that, because you run a prot build with powerful heals.

All in all, you've lost all credibility. You need to practice using different monk skills until you're competant enough with them to be able to tell what they are (spirit bond does not behave like healing prayers, it behaves like prot; you'd understand that if you used it more often).

Winterclaw · Oct 06, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I just can't figure out why you'd want that changed for no real reason.

Maybe he lost to a ZB monk.

Grinch123456 · Oct 06, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Maybe Spazzer is an idiot. Seriously, don't feed the trolls.

Spazzer · Oct 06, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

You use dboon, they use ZB. How does that make your build any better?

It's not. If you used Divine Boon recently, you would know that. However, it is adequate. Zealous Benediction in any prot bar outclasses DBoon.

Quote:

Sure, if you have a rit healer instead (which use prot in the form of weapons).

Yes.

Quote:

Basically... you've got very little grasp of game mechanics as they apply to monks. Heal had zero utility for a long time, and it still sort of does (cure hex is nice, but isn't everything). Prot has lots of utility. Yes, prot is better than healing (proactive damage mitigation saves tons of energy compared to mindless reactive red-bars-go-up).

I have little grasp of game mechanics as they apply to monks, but you'll agree with me. I like this paragraph.

Quote:

All in all, you've lost all credibility.

Who are you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

(spirit bond does not behave like healing prayers, it behaves like prot; you'd understand that if you used it more often)

(spirit bond behaves exactly like Healing Hands and Seed, which are healing; you'd understand that if you used it more often)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Maybe he lost to a ZB monk.

Age · Oct 06, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

When it comes to 4x4 in TA and you are a hybrid or take AB for example and you are using infuse health as the only healing spell on your bar.ZB makes for a great self heal afterwards and I have seen this down on 4x4 team infuse then zb.A build like this would have most of their points in protect.devine favour.healing and any secondary skills.

DreamRunner · Oct 06, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Nobody (worth mentioning) plays 4v4 seriously. Good PvPers only play TA when they're bored.

Wait, what?

TA is very competitive, if you didn't know, then its a lack of experience in TA and not to mention that many people find it more fun than GvG.

Giga Strike · Oct 06, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

ok coming to spazzer's defence:

everything about zealous benediction DOES just scream healing. healing is about restoring lost health which is the only thing ZB does. protection is mainly about decreasing the dmg taken or causing attacks to be blocked.

i understand where he is coming from but like everyone else in the world i agree that it shouldnt be moved to healing, but for a different reason. healing doesnt need it! ive reviewed all of the skills in the prot line and found that ZB is the only healing skill it has and its way too slow to do the work alone. healing has far more skills that restore health and skills that are far stronger.

when it comes down to it ZB is a very weak threat to the healing line. though prot is the most powerful type of monk, its only as strong as it is because most of the prot builds borrow important skills from healing.

/kindasigned

Curse You · Oct 06, 2007, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Some skills don't quite fit their attribute, get over it.

Some examples;

[wiki]Vapor Blade[/wiki] is just damage, unlike the normal hexing of Water Magic.

[wiki]Chilling Winds[/wiki] seems more like a Water Magic skill.

[wiki]Dark Bond[/wiki] seems better suited for Death Magic.

[wiki]Bloodsong[/wiki] the only attack spirit in Channeling (it was moved there).

[wiki]Poison Arrow[/wiki] the only Bow attack in Wilderness Survival.

[wiki]Disarm[/wiki] a sword attack in Strength?

[wiki]Vampiric Assault[/wiki] the only dagger attack in Deadly Arts.

Deadlyjunk · Oct 06, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

My question from page 2 hasn't been answered. What imbalanced builds or even working builds for HA/GvG/PvE with ZB are there?

/close

Div · Oct 06, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Spazzar. You fail at the game. Just don't make another thread asking to move watchful spirit to the healing line because it does healing. kk?

You have no evidence why ZB should be moved to the healing line, and there is strong evidence against such a movement (aka nerf).

Antheus · Oct 06, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

If anything, there should be more such "game breaking" skills.

Too many skills added have served a single class. What's wrong with promoting diversity?

Or better yet, why not just revamp skills, so that everyone can run 14/13 attributes, and forget secondary altogether. To make things simpler.... /sarcasm

What would make things interesting - an Elite prot skill in healing. Then you'd see some diversity. ZB allows prot monks a lot of flexibility. Why should there be a full heal and full prot monk in every party? What's wrong with two heal/prots?

RhanoctJocosa · Oct 06, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Um? ZB is actually a very well balanced skill.

Darkhell153 · Oct 06, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

zealous benediction includes energy management so in my opinion if they change it, it should be in divine favor not healing prayers.

Melody Cross · Oct 06, 2007, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

Who? Nobody dissagreed. We knew how bad putting an unconditional heal in Prot would be.

I disagreed. I read this kinda stuff during the NF preview event and thought it was total idiocy then.

And you still haven't answered my question of post 60: where the heck is ZB going to see play if its moved to healing prayers??? What arena are you trying to balance the skill for?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grinch123456

Maybe Spazzer is an idiot. Seriously, don't feed the trolls.

I'm starting to wonder myself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkhell153

zealous benediction includes energy management so in my opinion if they change it, it should be in divine favor not healing prayers.

I wouldn't have disagreed with this pre-EoTN, but putting ZB into a smiteboons hands could be teetering on imba. They've got enough utility and healing to be effective 4v4 (not great but effective). Putting an energy managing elite heal in their hands might be too much.

Snow Bunny · Oct 06, 2007, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Spazzer, from the amount of nay-saying you're receiving around these parts...

it should be pretty RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing obvious that you

a. don't speak for any mentionably significant portion of the community

b. have a valid argumentative point whatsoever

So, let's just go with options c and d

c. /notsigned

d. /threadfailure

Chris Blackstar · Oct 06, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Forgive my sarcasm, but do you really think top players, some of which have been playing for two years, hadn't thought about countering builds? Skill balance goes a lot deeper than you think and, judging by your post, I doubt you have enough experience in PvP to understand this.

This is what all PvP'ers fail to undersatand, that GW was a failure from the start. The game failed because Anet in there crappy wisdom wanted to merge PvP and PvE together. Problem was that the skills were designed at a PvE level. They made them powerful to battle monsters and to add challenge to the game, however when those skills were introduced to PvP players, at first it seemed ok for the first year, since everyone was on the same playing field, but as new player base joined, the old player base started to develop an advantage.

Thus skill nerfing started to appear, and mainly for HoH, since it was the most popular style of PvP play. From then on HoH builds and teams continued to dictate how skills were nerfed or buffed, yet Anet still designed skills with PvE in mind for each new chapter. This continued until GW:EN, but by then it was to late.

GW2 will be where PvE and PvP are kept at a distance, and all the mistakes made in GW, I hope will not be repeated. That is the idea anyway.

So please don't tell me I do not have enough experience at PvP and understanding skill balancing, it's ovous to me that that spazzer is a griefer. End of story

ZB was designed to give protection prayers some extra healing abilities besides what they get from divine favor with energy management built into it. It was designed for PvE since most team builds have a healing monk and a protection monk, the carry over to PvP was a bonus discovered by experienced players.

Exterminate all · Oct 06, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

You would want to balance up the skills, not put all of the powerful skills in healing prayers, and not all of the powerful skills in protection prayers.

Arenanet did a good job on balancing it up and changing it around. If you have 16 healing prayers you could use ZB and all of the other great healing skills without using ANY protection prayers at all. That right there is imbalanced. It would make healing prayers too powerful, and protection prayers not powerful enough.

/notsigned